Curse

Avarre · Mar 11, 2007, 02:26 PM // 14:26

The situation of PvE with regards to the Mesmer can be best introduced by a simple recap of the standard structure of PvE groups. Tank – Healer – Nuker. Essentially, all classes in the game playing in PvE fall to an extent into one of these three extremes. Other styles – such as support, disruption, and so on tend to simply augment the strength of the main three groups. The nature of PvE is also that specializing towards the trinity tends to provide more absolute efficiency to the group as a whole. Mesmers, while capable of multiple styles of play, do not do anything specifically well in PvE when compared to other classes. Elementalists have better AoE, Warriors have higher dps, Rangers have better interruption. The Mesmer was an inventive class to introduce, but as far as fighting computer-controlled monsters go it is simply not efficient and growing less effective. As a result, the Mesmer tends to fall into more niche roles than anything.

A trend has developed in PvE itself that is worth noting.

In Prophecies, the ‘elite area’ at first was the Fissure, and the Underworld. At this point, skills like empathy, backfire, shatter hex, and cry were considered efficient and powerful skills. After the major AoE nerf, which disrupted the trinity of PvE groups for some time, Mesmers could actually be found in groups. The problem for Mesmers compounded with the development of PvE elite areas throughout the next expansions.

Factions Elite Missions: Gigantic packs of mobs
Nightfall Elite Missions: Stat-pumping large packs of mobs

Neither of these conditions is favorable for Mesmers. Progressive development of monster health, numbers, and power also leads to one-dimensionalization of PvE ‘tactics’ – essentially, it becomes a bigger issue of pulling, grouping, and wiping. The pinnacle of PvE is to gather, group, and wipe mob packs in the quickest possible time. Very rarely does a Mesmer fit into this tactical plan (shatter hex and dom aoes, in some areas). Disruption is better dealt by other classes that are also capable of stronger dps and versatility.

With the introduction of Nightfall, there was (in both PvE and PvP) a notable increase in damage and health. Skills like Searing Flames and Sandstorm provided a great boost to damage (specifically, against enemies that balled up), and the health of players, by average, rose from around 450-500 to 600~ on many characters. This paralleled PvE - Anur mobs have near to double the health of Shadow Mobs, not to mention the immense boost to other stats.

As these new skills were brought in that could deal higher levels of damage in comparison to previous areas, it became necessary to use them to compensate for the rising health of enemy groups. Where empathy had been considered a powerful PvE skill, (at 30 damage per attack) in Prophecies, Mesmers now clung to the 100 AoE damage of Spiritual Pain (usually echo’ed, glyphed, or promised for frequent casts). Before the introduction of Spiritual Pain, Mesmer’s had still been able to work well in PvE, yet this skill caused quite an effect when it was weakened to general uselessness in PvE. Mesmer’s complained viciously, and spoke of the class being neutered. Clearly, something else had developed, resulting in this – considering all previous forms of Mesmer power were still as per norm.

Each class has (or at least, is supposed to have) a clear definition and goal. For Elementalists, for example, the goal was to deal AoE damage (as far as PvE is concerned). The Mesmer’s most prized skill from Nightfall, with just about every PvE player using domination running it, was Spiritual Pain. This skill was liked because it allowed Mesmers to use capabilities from the focus of another class – AoE damage. This increased the popularity of the Mesmer, and raised the level of damage Mesmers could deal by a notch.

The problem, however, of giving classes skills that have more of a focus in another class, is in imbalance. PvE, quite simply, does not care about skill balances – you can quite literally run whatever you want in nearly all areas and still do well. However, putting one of the most devastating, armor-ignoring spike skills on a character, and in the same line, as the most effective shutdown resulted in rather painful repercussions in the PvP world. It was no surprise when Spiritual Pain was nerfed, and even PvE players could have seen it coming – it was balanced against no skill in the Mesmer line, essentially a faster, non-elite Energy Surge with a clause that turned it into an instant-slaughter button if met. The nerf of Spiritual Pain fixed some issues in PvP, but created others in PvE.

Spiritual Pain did require a nerf, but the effects highlighted the fundamental incompatibility with Mesmers and PvE. Previously, a trend of increasing health and damage was mentioned. Increased health and increased damage tended to balanced out in the end – Searing Flames spam in the Domain of Anguish was even faster than the Firestorms in the Fissure of old Prophecies. While classes like the Elementalist have their damage increase… Mesmers effectively lost, with the nerf of Spiritual Pain (and the hit to Energy Surge radius), their link in the trend of increasing direct firepower. With AoE strength increasing to match Anet’s policy of making PvE harder with more mobs of higher strength, this effectively left the Mesmer using Prophecies-power skills against ridiculously increased monsters. By implementing Nightfall-level monsters but withholding an equivalent increase in power by weakening the Nigthfall-level skills, a serious rift was created between the power of the other classes and the Mesmer.

This isn’t to say Spiritual Pain should not have been nerfed, but it shows the biggest issue with the Mesmer as regards to PvE. A class built on reducing the efficiency of enemies simply is not as effective as pure force and damage. When you block skills and capabilities, you reduce the effective intelligence of the enemy, as they can no longer do complex or efficient things. PvE mobs are already at 0 effective intelligence, and need very little shutdown - the only example is ridiculous single skills (300hp Orison on Willa the Unpleasant -> Diversion). You don’t need to attempt to control an enemy when the length of the battle is determined by how fast your spells destroy them, and not who cracks under pressure first. Disruption, the ‘reduction of enemy efficiency’ that Mesmers are meant to be capable of, is easier caused by Eles and Rangers. With monsters blindly wielding skills on recharge, and chasing those they see, the best way to reduce effectiveness is through simply abusing the AI, and then laying into them with force. No matter how much you shut down an enemy, it still has to be killed – and classes like Elementalists and Rangers can disrupt as well as deal massively superior damage.

To illustrate one of the problems, here is a significantly simplified model. Let’s take the Mesmer as shutdown, and the Elementalist as AoE damage;

Against a group of five monsters (with one monk), the Mesmer is, for this example, shutting down the one monk completely (100%). The Elementalist’s damage is at a ratio of 1, with each spell striking five foes.

Doubling the size of the group (10 monsters, 2 monks in the group) shows the issue. The Mesmer, with the same skills, is now only shutting down half of the total number of monks, reducing the mesmer’s efficiency to ½. By contrast, the Elementalist skills are now hitting twice the number of enemies, ceteris paribus. This gives the Elementalist twice the efficiency, a ratio of 2 (compared to the first example. With the Mesmer’s effectiveness in relation to the enemy group being at ½, and the Elementalist’s at 2, the Elementalist is now four times more effective than the Mesmer when doubling the size of the enemy group.

This is only a very simplified model, which makes a huge number of assumptions, but it shows the general issue. If you tripled the size of the monster group, the Mesmer would be shutting down only a third of his foes, and the Elementalist dealing three times his prior damage – making the Elementalist nine times more effective.

This is because most Mesmer skills are single-target, whereas Elementalist AoE’s are capable of spread damage, dealing more in total when you add more enemies. This has held true forever, but Mesmer damage skills tend to even out the situation slightly by allowing them to nuke as well as disrupt.

With those few AoE options hit, the few remaining (Shatter Hex) simply do not compare to those of other classes. Rangers (broadhead/epidemic or conc/epidemic/barrage) are more capable at caster shutdown and interrupts. Elementalists can throw out more disruption and damage with chained meteor showers. Both of these classes are not only capable of AoE damage, but AoE shutdown as well, escaping the flaws that cripple the Mesmer. Even so, Mesmer’s could still deal damage and thus find a place in PvE groups, despite the ineffectiveness of shutdown in a PvE situation as a whole.

Mesmers, with increased direct damage firepower, maintained some place in PvE. However, with the removal of these AoE damage skills as viable options, ANet has essentially thrown the Mesmer out of an effective damage role, and put them on a level that I would not hesitate to call obsolete. Even with the few damage skills given in Nightfall, the trend of reduced efficiency against larger numbers was there – but it has been dangerously increased now. The fact that Mesmers even required this style of cross-class skills is a testament to the absolute inefficiency of their class as a whole in the world ANet is creating, and a solid example of the reduction of PvE even further into a pure dps-fest.

Note also, that I have only spoken about Domination so far. Illusion as a viable stat line perished in Factions – with rising health and numbers of enemies completely demolishing it’s use. Twenty damage per second, even on ten separate enemies at once, won’t match the firepower of a single Elementalist, or Ranger, or even a melee with some area attack skills. While the power of Illusion remained constant, monsters maintain full effectiveness until they actually die, and Illusion now takes longer to do that, and a higher investment of energy to even reach the rising number of targets over a longer period of time.

Aside from the horrific inefficiencies of Mesmer disruption and damage compared to most other classes, the basic goal of the Mesmer has issues. A Mesmer reduces the efficiency of enemies, by hampering their ability to perform. Mesmers are there to make killing things easier and more effective - but 'efficiency' in PvE is how far you can spread AoE damage and mulitply the efficiency of your spells. In PvP, when people balled up, you didn't need a Mesmer – you could blow them apart with hero SFway. In no circumstance will Mesmer shutdown be able to surpass taking a spell of X damage, and multiplying it by 5-10 on several targets. This is the reason why ANet’s PvE developmental trend is screwing Mesmers in PvE from both sides – both with their skillset, and again fundamentally with their purpose. Why would a player bring an interrupt Mesmer, when a Ranger can fire more interrupts that stop a wider range of skills? Or if they could simply bring Elementalists, who can chain Meteor Showers and disable a group of foes while unleashing significant damage on them?

It is possible to solve some of the issues, at least in the developmental facet of the problem. Step back from the number/stat pumping of Factions and Nightfall elite areas. Areas like FoW and UW used more variety without ridiculous number raising, and mobile patrols to create a challenge to PvE players. Make the maximum mob level for standard packs 24, 28 for bosses, 30 for superbosses. Give real skill bars to the monsters. Vary the content of the groups so that even when all on a single target, they do not stand so close together. This wouldn't solve the fundamental problem - the PvE objective does not include a mesmer. However, it would increase the effectiveness of the Mesmer's skills in comparison to the situation now. Groups that used counters to end-all effects like daze and knockdown would result in a higher demand for Mesmer hard shutdown.

There is some precedent for this. Jade Brotherhood (level 20), for example, did not need levels and buffs to cause havoc against players. Their efficiency lay in the fact they played like humans in a PvE environment – using disruptive AoE nukes (Dragon Stomp) and AoE damage such as Triple Chop to devastate PvE players that played much like mobs – simply walking up and throwing out damage at the nearest targets. Monsters with varied patterns and skills would result in AoE effectiveness being thinned, as a group of the same monster with the same target tends to stand in the same place. Proper skill bars would also result in a weakening of the effectiveness of pure nuke spam – as some level of disruption could be thrown back (Erys Vasburg proves AI can do that).

On a whole, however, a change in the constructed style of PvE, while solving a lot of other problems (stagnation, repetition, and so on), does nothing to change the fact that as far as PvE is concerned, purity leads to higher efficiency. The Mesmer simply does not fit into any category of PvE efficiency – and for that reason will never be in true demand. This is not to say that Mesmers are incapable of succeeding in PvE – they work, and can work well. This is PvE, though, and if you want to run naked with henchmen in the Southern Shiverpeaks, you’ll probably still succeed. Placing a Mesmer in the group, raising the human total from 7 to 8 players, makes the group stronger – but not as much as a more specialized and PvE capable class would have done. The fact that other classes can not only specialize, but gain secondary effects in the process (meteor shower being damage and knockdown) simply places them far above the Mesmer. The few cases where Mesmers are more effective than another class are largely due to a single capability being able to break a one-dimensional form of opposition. Examples are in Urgoz (echo’ed Cry and Shatter Hex can devastate the large packs and hexes being thrown about), Abbadon’s Mouth (Willa the Unpleasant packing a single, immense heal that can be disabled), and a few others that are generally similar. In both these cases though, the replacement of other classes with the Mesmer is not a linear increment – one Mesmer is all that is needed, and others simply reduce the maximum capability of the group.

Overall, the results of all this – the trends and the fundamental design – has placed the Mesmer at what is simply an obsolete PvE class. This may have not always been the case, but it is now – and the only real defenders of Mesmer effectiveness are mainly the players of the class themselves. From an objective viewpoint, the class has no solid capabilities that make them worth taking. If the trend of development of PvE is not changed, classes that rely on anything but AoE power, or that fall within the trinity, will become utterly ineffective on all levels. Monsters can be statistically raised, but the Mesmer class cannot be changed in kind – because their entire purpose does not lie along damaging multiple enemies. Perhaps the addition of AoE shutdown skills – but single-target efficiency already exists in PvP, and this could result in imbalances. Some people propose that splitting the skill stats of PvE and PvP would solve some issues – but that only emphasizes the problem that Mesmer’s need skills of other classes to even begin to approach the same level of effectiveness. What can be done is to shift PvE to be closer to PvP – varied, balanced groups with synergy between different mobs rather than simply adding more of the same to raise power. A higher degree of variety in the enemy style reduces the power of pure offence, as one-dimensional offence loses efficiency when the enemy is moving in two.

To end, I bring up one of my earlier points with regards to why the Mesmer lacks effectiveness. ANet created a fascinating class that counters the skill of an enemy as much as their skills – but mobs can’t be made any less skillful, and efficiency is in abusing this fact more than in anything that can be applied to the foe.

Dean Harper · Mar 11, 2007, 03:26 PM // 15:26

Amazing outlook on what is happening to the mesmer, i agree 100% with these statements. We definetally need to have a change in our skills so that we do not become obsolete (considering that we arent already) and gain higher demand for PvE and even PvP for that matter. When do you EVER see a mesmer in a HA group? In a TA group? Sure, we still do great in AB, but sometimes you just want to go for the elite things, and it is very hard to do with a Mesmer. That is, unless you have a guild group, but most of the time a lot of guilds dont have enough people online to make a group.

Shanaeri Rynale · Mar 11, 2007, 04:17 PM // 16:17

Nice summary on what experienced PvE mesmers have been saying for months.

I don't feel as tho i'm playing an obsolete class tho, just one in which the Cookie cutter masses fail to appreciate in general

Croix_Raul · Mar 11, 2007, 04:53 PM // 16:53

With regards to current skill set don't think it quite what anet claim to be balance

simple example: Nightmare Weapon vs Empathy
<Nightmare Weapon> weapon Spell. For 12 seconds, target ally has a Nightmare Weapon. Target ally's next 3 successful attacks are reduced by 10...53 damage and steals up to 10...53Health.

Comment:nice health stealing + bypass armour attack active attack type

cost 5 energy
Cast 1
Recharge 10
Blockable
non removeable

<Empathy>Hex Spell. For 5...16 seconds, whenever target foe attacks, that foe takes 15...47 damage.
cost 10 energy
Cast 2
Recharge 10
Unblockable
removeable

Comment:nice bypass armour attack passive attack type

Apart from from the comment you can clearly see some inbalancement issue
Nightmare weapon are capable of range version of Illusionary Weaponry i wonder if Anet Practices favorites or is this just another human error.

Maybe we should just start a protest Campaign to seperate PvP skill set from PvE skill set

Let my say this after playing for 1 yrs ++ playing mesmer in PvE is nothing more then a annoying Experience before heros came out.

PuG Comments:
-like omg you sux
-kick the mesmer they useless grab the necro SS
-Sorry we don't need a mesmer
Etc etc the list goes on

We can keep saying for years nothing ever change and yes it have been that long.

10 years kids shout: omg i am pawn by a mesmer!!!in PvP(so the start of Nerf the mesmer Campaign) Can't beat them nerf them,gather anti mesmer protester and nerf whatever good spell they have left.

Apart from the side track there a more and more unbalance within the game and Anet admin is unable to fix it as with each chapter adding their problem grows it only chapter 3 and they already have their hand full.

And With each changes the problem increase as well as randomized their inability to balance the game.
Public opinions also play a part as people opinion differ from person to person
And with Anet trying to win public support you can clearly see how thing can get out of hand

Right now i only play with heros or with my guildmate and friend i don't bother with people who don't understand mesmer i will keep laughing when shiro repeatly pawn them(maybe the only few places mesmer are needed other then PvP areas)

And DoA is nothing more then cheapskate version of Elite Mission reason simple look at faction Elite Mission the team clearly did a better job as for hard mode= lvl 30 monster. as for extreme mode they just need to put in lvl 50 monster and we all will have that hell feeling

Anarion Silverhand · Mar 11, 2007, 06:04 PM // 18:04

Excellent article. I agree with the whole thing.

As you say, the weakness of the Mesmer are single-target spells, which isn't very strong in PvE. Especially Nightfall...

The whole construction of PvE made the mesmer almost useless. Pull, group into a tight ball of mobs, nuke. Single-target spells simply won't fit in there. There are some usefull skills, Fevered Dreams for example, that work well with large groups of mobs, yet the problem is, the average player simply won't take a mesmer into his group.

With that being said, the introduction of Erys Vasburg made playing factions a breeze IMO. I'd rather take a mesmer over another wammo or E/Me any day, as the mesmer would most likely know what he's doing.

As you've said, PvE needs a change. The ball is in your court, Anet.

Katari · Mar 11, 2007, 06:49 PM // 18:49

And this is why hard mode worries me. I fear they might consider making areas more "difficult" by buffing numbers of monsters, or giving existing mobs DoA style strength.

=DNC=Trucker · Mar 11, 2007, 09:03 PM // 21:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Katari

And this is why hard mode worries me. I fear they might consider making areas more "difficult" by buffing numbers of monsters, or giving existing mobs DoA style strength.

I wouldn't doubt it at all...

Avarre · Mar 11, 2007, 11:46 PM // 23:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shanaeri Rynale

I don't feel as tho i'm playing an obsolete class tho, just one in which the Cookie cutter masses fail to appreciate in general

I know what you mean, having advocated mesmers in PvE for some time. The problem is that considering mesmers as a truly effective class is become more idealism and less realism. You can appreciate the class all you like, but objectively, the class lacks capability.

For example, you cleared Fissue with eight mesmers on some occasions. FoW, with specialization towards the trinity, has been cleared completely with three players, and without much difficulty. Mesmers work, and are underappreciated as a class, true - but other classes simply have more to appreciate.

pingu666 · Mar 12, 2007, 01:00 AM // 01:00

feavered dreams would work well as a team build, or just on a a/me (poison, bleeding, deep would, blind and maybe cripple on mob from assassin alone.

adding damage absorbtion to enemies, or to change it so melee bonus damage doesnt ignore armour (ele damage per target is mostly painfully bad). on a muursatt boss i think the relative dps on a mesmer is damn good.

what skills could a mesmer use to shutdown a caster, as well as dazed + someone whacking him/her in the face?

Croix_Raul · Mar 12, 2007, 04:53 AM // 04:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by pingu666

feavered dreams would work well as a team build, or just on a a/me (poison, bleeding, deep would, blind and maybe cripple on mob from assassin alone.

Yes that will work BUT there are better way to do that now example dervish Dustcloak (Blind) Aura of thorn (Cripple/bleed) compare with fevered dreams chain mean extra elite slot, energy cost as well as casting time not to mention attribute point being more spread out this have already made quite a few mesmer elite spell quite Obsolete

Mesmer are become more more sideline to very specific roles as compare to ranger clearly being more Flexible with pros like higher Armour value, spammable interrupt and even a good form of AoE like Barrage.

Right now mesmer only benefit from hex removing better spell recharge,interrupt fast casting not what i wll call good since a 20/20 will work just as well but in a randomize situation

frojack · Mar 12, 2007, 05:04 AM // 05:04

I understand you completely. However I think your looking at the problem from a facet that would ultimately always lead to the conclusion that the mesmer is inferior in pve. In all honesty your quite correct, but the problem isn't with the mesmer. It's with pve in general...

Elementalists are essentially a joke in PvP in terms of damage dealing. This is not news. In contrast mesmers offer considerable effectiveness in terms of shutting down or simply decimating less vigilant players. In PvE the opposite is mostly true. Why is that..?
The difference can be generalised as AoE versus single target offense. AoE is ineffective in PvP while the opposite is true for PvE. The elementalist is king of AoE. It's simply the way it's meant to be (having much to do with thier own problems).

Your example of increasing the mob count and observing the effectiveness of the elementalist increase in tandem, while the opposite occurs for the mesmer is true for more or less all classes when compared to the elementalist. Look at warriors; Possessing the highest dps in the game doesn't stop them being out-classed by elementalists when the number of affected foes increases.

The mesmer as you well know has the tools to destroy any single foe in PvE. This is consistent (with a relatively small margin of variance) through all 3 games, where as most of the other classes can not claim the same kind of efficiency primarily due to the armour ignoring nature of the damage (I'd wager only the necromancer rivals this ability). So this would presuppose that the mesmer is certainly not a weak class.
In light of this, the dilemma is clearly lies elsewhere. The intellect of PvE adversaries to be more precise...

If mobs were to scatter more and move in wider formations, AoE would be almost useless. Bringing things closer to PvP where elementalists are closer, if not inferior to mesmers.
If mobs were given more effective builds (8 skills, mandatory res skills etc.) they would be vastly more challenging and thus strengthen the appeal of shut down. Additionally conditional spells such as Wastrel's Demise and Visions of Regret would rise in effectiveness.
Considering all that, it appears the problem mesmers face is that relative to most of the other classes, they are greatly effected by the environment they function in (similar in many respects to ritualists). Where their environment is one of incompetence, their effectiveness isn't so much reduced but that of their allies is greatly increased. As the level of the playing field rises, so does the power of the mesmer. This is irrefutable.

So where does that lead us? I guess right back to the original problem. Spiritual Pain and Energy Surge were prime examples of the mesmer straddling the divide in a bid to overcome this issue by aping the elementalist. They were right to be adjusted as it was just distraction to the real problem which is the poor quality of PvE opposition. It would seem Anet have began to tackle the problem but have the hard part to follow. Just how do you 'fix' PvE for mesmers (and everyone else for that matter)? It's more complex than it initially appears...

Your options are...

1. Bring the level of competition closer to PvP standards. This can be achieved by adjusting skills and formations. Obvious balance issues would be adjusting the numbers to accommodate this change.

2. Increase mesmer AoE effectiveness. This has been tested somewhat already and has met with negative results. Prime example being Spiritual Pain. Other methods could be explored however (aoe hexes, more aoe interrupts etc.).

These are the 2 main options available. Option 2 has been partially tested already to negative results. So option 1 would seem to be more appropriate. This however leads to other less obvious issues...

The vast player base is generally not effective enough to tackle mid to high level PvP strategy. So to take this approach may alienate a huge proportion of the current players of Guild Wars. A far worse situation than that which exists currently. As with any environment governed directly or indirectly by it's inhabitants, the vast majority is more important than any other group.

However this is surface level deduction. Balance is what is required. One which allows less able players to succeed but also one competent enough to increase mesmer power by being more powerful itself.
Mesmers are the lords of subversion. They should remain so and not be diluted by aping elementalists. As doing this will ultimately reduce their subversive power to balance their aoe abilities, and all we'll be left with is elementalist 1.5. Is this what people really want? I doubt it...

Avarre · Mar 12, 2007, 05:58 AM // 05:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by frojack

Your example of increasing the mob count and observing the effectiveness of the elementalist increase in tandem, while the opposite occurs for the mesmer is true for more or less all classes when compared to the elementalist. Look at warriors; Possessing the highest dps in the game doesn't stop them being out-classed by elementalists when the number of affected foes increases.

The problem with that is warriors in PvE can deal damage, but they don't have to. They can fundamentally serve their role by simply acting as a tank - and twice as many mobs just means they hold twice as much aggro. They have a role for themselves there without having to cross into a PvE damage dealer (which they can), and so do most other classes. Mesmers, however, can only try to fit into a mutated nuker-disrupter role that they are outclassed at.

frojack · Mar 12, 2007, 06:48 AM // 06:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

The problem with that is warriors in PvE can deal damage, but they don't have to. They can fundamentally serve their role by simply acting as a tank - and twice as many mobs just means they hold twice as much aggro. They have a role for themselves there without having to cross into a PvE damage dealer (which they can), and so do most other classes. Mesmers, however, can only try to fit into a mutated nuker-disrupter role that they are outclassed at.

I see. So purpose is your dilemma? A very real issue. However the mesmer is just too delicate to mess with in my mind. They 'work' (albeit within their realm of effectiveness). They are also fairly consistent which is a surprise if you look at the majority.
So in this regard, I still stand by my earlier conclusion that it's PvE that needs to change, not mesmers.

Avarre · Mar 12, 2007, 07:14 AM // 07:14

That's completely correct. As I stated in the introduction, PvE has three main purposes - Tank/Nuke/Heal. Each class tends to fall into a certain group to an extent, and the less extreme to one of these you are, the less overall effectiveness you have in PvE. Mesmers have a purpose, but it simply isn't compatible to PvE itself, falling completely out of bounds of the trinity with minor power in nuke.

The mesmer doesn't need a retool, because it's an incredibly interesting class with great potential of putting gameplay beyond who can throw more damage out. One of the reasons I brought up so much of the design of PvE and the development of PvE in this was because PvE needs a fundamental overhaul both in design and in progression in order for mesmers to regain some place in PvE.

Like you and I both brought up, an increase in the 'intelligence' of foes makes mesmers more effective - ANet is moving in the opposite direction for making their PvE harder and this is having a detrimental effect to the state of the mesmer.

Morganas · Mar 12, 2007, 07:32 AM // 07:32

I disagree that mesmers mimicking elementalists is a problem. You can't "buff" pve mobs to be more mesmer friendly, ANet would lose huge numbers of players who couldn't adapt. Even in parts of the game where a mesmer helps alot, people prefer "tank nuker healer," they just like it because it's easy to deal with and organize around.

The solution, in my mind, is just changing a few skills around to allow mesmers to fill one of the 3 roles *almost* as well as the actual class, with a bit of disruption thrown in, essentially same as rangers, dealing less damage than elementalists (but enough), but more versatility.

You could accomplish this by changing a few skill mechanics:
-Change elemental attunment back to the way it used to be, untied to any attribute and with a long duration for any class.
-Buff energy gained from energy tap, make it scale poorly for <12 inspiration.
-Make signet of illusion function on the next X spells (stick it in the inspiration or illusion line or something), and balance with a long cooldown.
-Boost chaos storm aoe, make it deal bonus damage on every attack and skill used (like spiteful spirit).

Changes like these won't hurt pvp, and let mesmers heal or nuker moderately well while doing other mesmerish things.

LightningHell · Mar 12, 2007, 07:41 AM // 07:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morganas

-Change elemental attunment back to the way it used to be, untied to any attribute and with a long duration for any class.

Me/E Air Spike gogogo. Wait, Gale is dead...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morganas

-Buff energy gained from energy tap, make it scale poorly for <12 inspiration.

Buff cast times as well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morganas

-Boost chaos storm aoe, make it deal bonus damage on every attack and skill used (like spiteful spirit).

It'll either be too overpowered or too underpowered. You're basically asking for a free Spiteful Spirit WITH some unconditional AoE added in. It'll make Mesmers wanted all right, but only as Chaos Storm spammers.

Avarre · Mar 12, 2007, 08:00 AM // 08:00

Morganas' points only show that Mesmers would be more effective as a different class. That's not a good thing - a class without a very clear role is hard to be continually developed, and leads to something that just ends up being a mishmash rather than interesting.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morganas

Changes like these won't hurt pvp, and let mesmers heal or nuker moderately well while doing other mesmerish things.

That might make more people take Mesmers into the group, but they would still be emulating another class rather than playing their own. If a class is going to be made of of skills that are fundamentally belonging to another class, why bother even having it in the game?

By the way, delete Maelstrom, and make Chaos Storm do damage and interrupt. Seriously, why is that not a Mesmer skill.

Morganas · Mar 12, 2007, 08:14 AM // 08:14

Agreed about maelstrom. Water is good enough without it, and it's not like it's a viable pvp skill (outside of AB or old HoH).

I disagree that's it's a bad thing for mesmers to be more effective in pve mimmicking another class. Mesmers have a clear vision behind their development, it's just that vision has no place in guild wars pve, and for good reason. A pve that supported that playstyle would be too difficult and stressful for noncompetitive players, not to mention that improved AI (required if you improved skillbars) would strain the hell out of ANets servers.

All classes should be viable in all forms of pve IMO, but they don't all need a diverse set of build without requiring they delve into their secondary. Just throw mesmer a few pve bones, ones that will let them tap into pve improvements in other professions down the line (like the buffs to energy tap, attunment, and signet of illusion), and leave it at that.

BDStyle · Mar 12, 2007, 03:19 PM // 15:19

Fantastic article

Hmm, well my suggestion is fairly simple. Many of us think that aoe hex's on thinks like backfire etc would work however I think a better option would be this.
A new skill

Make it core so everyone can get it.

<insert awesome skill name>
Your next mesmer hex effects all <insert a balanced range> foes to target.

It could be like a glyph but for mesmers

frojack · Mar 12, 2007, 03:45 PM // 15:45

Leave my water ele alone thank you very much.

seriously though, this is the crux of the problem. You start making things like Backfire AoE to compensate for a poorly designed PvE environment, you have to also make AoE Backfire far weaker than it currently is to compensate (you really think that kind of AoE caster shut down is not over-powered?).
I like the mesmer fine as it is. You think I'll trade Backfire as it is now for some AoE rubbish in the same manner as Cry of Frustration, just to 'hit more people'? Never in a million years. There is no sane way you can justify AoE on things like Backfire or PowerSpike without taking a performance hit.

If Anet decide to support this nonsense, they will just put one more nail in the coffin. A 'patch' is not a durable solution. You don't break what isn't broken.

Like I've said, I feel the class is generally well made and can function very well. I may not get into DoA with the class, but who cares? DoA/RoT is even more poorly designed than the rest of the the PvE universe. It certainly isn't any fun to play.